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diesel vs benzina
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Author:  Tupac [ 03 Feb 2009, 10:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

OK, inteleg ca putina caterinca e bine venita din cand in cand, inteleg ca se mai aprind spirite cateodata, dar le dorim pentru scurte perioade de timp.
Vad ca aici discutia a luat-o razna prea mult, firul topicului pare pierdut undeva in negura timpurilor, si ca sa nu incep sa dau warn-uri peste warn-uri (pentru ca nu doresc sa reincep a modera), o sa fac totusi ceva: o sa pun punct acestui topic, cel putin pana cineva face curatenie (sau muta discutiile irelevante in alta parte).
So...enjoy this!

facem altfel de democratie - mai controlata :)
asa ca lasam topicul deschis dar orice continuare a discutie pe acest ton se va sanctiona cu warn de min. 20% si stergerea postului, bine?
asa ca jucati-va frumos!
multumesc
madkat

Author:  Allex [ 18 Feb 2009, 16:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Test

Precizez ca sunt de acord doar la partea cu mega miles. In rest totul e discutabil.

Author:  yux_mm [ 19 Feb 2009, 01:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Cei de la AutoBuild au facut 2 teste comparative pentru a trage concluzii asupra benzina vs. diesel. Pentru asta au luat perechi de masini cam din toate clasele: mini, mica, compacta, medie, suv compact si mare, niste break-uri, niste monovolume, ceva masini cu tenta utilitara (gen renault kangoo)(perechile erau in genul urmator: 2 fiaturi 500, unul benzina unul diesel, 2 renault kangoo, unul benzina unul diesel, etc). Nu au luat din clasa mare si lux pentru ca probabil acolo nu mai conteaza cati bani dai, e doar o chestie de preferinta. E adevarat ca la vreo 2-3 modele parca nu au luat motoarele cele mai potrivite pentru comparat, dar probabil ca le-au luat pe cele mai vandute pentru modelul respectiv. Oricum, majoritatea covarsitoare a motoarelor erau cele entry-level pentru modelele respective. Sa luat in calcul combustibilul consumat, revizii, asigurari CASCO si RCA, impozit. S-a considerat un timp de 4 ani de folosinta si 10.000km/an. Consumul masinilor nu a fost cel anuntat in fisele tehnice ci consumul masurat de ei in conditii normale de drum in oras si in afara orasului.
Rezultate: 90% din modelele echipate cu motoare pe benzina au iesit mai economice la sfarsit cand tragi linie. Aproximativ jumatate din aceste masini pe benzina au fost depasite de concurentele lor diesel in ceea ce priveste placerea condusului si confortul condusului (a nu se intelege confortul oferit de masina in general, ci acela al condusului). Acestea au fost practic recomandate a fi luate serios in considerare in detrimentul suratelor lor pe benzina, desi sunt mai putin economice (din punc de vedere al cheltuielilor totale, nu doar cu combustibilul). Scorul fina a fost foarte strans castigatoare iesind benzina.
In general nejustificat ca investitie s-a dovedit motorul diesel la masinile din clasa mini, mica, si uneori compacta, deoarece in aceste cazuri nu se parcurg prea multi km astfel incat sa fie pus in valoare consumul redus de combustibil.

Concluzia pe care o trag eu este ca benzina are la aceasta ora un usor avantaj, iar in conditii de utilizare asemanatoare celor propuse in acest test, alegerea este mai mult de preferinta si nu neaparat de economie.

Author:  Nea Victor [ 19 Feb 2009, 02:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

VERY, VERY :goodpost:

Author:  Alexandrus [ 19 Feb 2009, 02:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Faza e ca au pornit de la o premiza gresita, si anume ca se foloseste masina ~800km pe luna. Pina si eu, care sunt mai casnic asa, depasesc 800km/luna.
Cit despre placerea condusul, e o chestie pur subiectiva, unota poate le place la nebunie 1.9 TDI, altii prefera un 2.0 aspirat. Depinde cum conduci, ca daca merg toti ca mine, ca schimb la 2000-2500RPM(in oras, din motive de zgomot, adica nu imi place sa fac zgomot), evident, e mai bine cu diesel.

Author:  georgecristian [ 19 Feb 2009, 06:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Concluzii foarte savante pentru testul respectiv, ce sa mai povestim!? Ca automobilele cu mic litraj ( 1.4 -1.6l ) se dovedesc (tot) mai economice pe benzina, sau ca in traficul de oras navighezi mai confortabil pe diesel (mai ales utilizatorii tinta ai aceluiasi test) , stia oricine fara sa fie nevoie de teste cu resurse impresionante! Rezultatele sunt cat se poate de previzibile in conditiile date. Sau ma insel, e cineva surprins si luminat de rezultatele "testului" ?

Author:  Tupac [ 19 Feb 2009, 10:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Eu nu :)
Pai si eu daca as dori sa imi iau o masinuta mica, cu motor 1.0-1.2-1.4, tot benzina ar fi prima alegere in lista. Cred ca problemele se pun cel mai bine la 1.6-2.0l...

Author:  Cristi99 [ 19 Feb 2009, 12:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

la 10.000 km pe an si intr-un orasel mic clar ai probleme daca vrei diesel pt economie..
nu m-ar mira la baietii astia un test in care sa zica care masina e mai economica daca se fac 500 km pe an :bash:

Author:  AndreiSW [ 20 Feb 2009, 22:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Vad ca au inviat iar discutiile. Eu ma retrag ! :wave: Alfa mea, pe langa ceva benzina....arde GPL !
Acum sa vezi discutii : "ca distruge motorul....supapele....ca nu are ungere.....ca are ardere uscata...etc "

Author:  tzili [ 21 Feb 2009, 11:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

E un test irelevant. Din start cand spui 10000 km/an, spui benzina. Toata lumea stie asta. Interesant este cand sari de 20000 km/an. Si nu mi se pare mult.

Author:  Cristi99 [ 21 Feb 2009, 16:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

in general peste 30.000 pe an discutam de rentabilitate costuri diesel.

Author:  alfetta [ 04 Mar 2009, 22:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

http://www.seat-sport.com/esp/default.htm :naughty:

Author:  Nea Victor [ 04 Mar 2009, 23:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

So what ? Turbo vs aspirat , asta a fost lupta in WTCC . Sa nu-i puna naiba pe aia de la BMW sa puna turbo pe 320si , sau pe aia de la Alfa Romeo sa se intoarca in WTCC cu vreun TBi ca s-a zis cu SEAT . :naughty:

Author:  alfetta [ 04 Mar 2009, 23:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

am zis si eu ...de amorul artei ...si totusi dieselul a ajuns sus :D
stiu care-i treaba cu turbo :peace: pt cei care au rabdare :


Diesel vs. Gasoline Turbo Design

There is much confusion about turbos and their use on diesel engines compared to their use on gasoline engines. We'll see if we can shed some light on the subject.

The principals of their operation are the same and their plumbing of intake air and exhaust gases are the same, but where the real issues come into play are the combustion pressures and temperatures, operating RPM range, and the driving cycle.
Diesel Engines and Turbos

Let's start with the basics. Whether it is a semi truck or a generator set, turbocharged diesel engines are typically large displacement, low operating RPM power plants. They run in a very narrow RPM range. Diesel fuel is atomized as it enters the combustion chamber and upon compression (with only residual heat) the air/fuel mixture lights off. The combustion pressures are very high due to the high compression ratios needed to ignite the mixture. Because of the high compression pressures, mechanical parts must be strengthened to handle such loads: connecting rods are larger, crankshafts are stronger, and pistons are bigger. All of this reinforcement means that there is a much heavier rotating mass, which is more difficult to spin at high RPMs, so diesel engines tend to be low RPM power plants.

As with any internal combustion engine, the more air and fuel that can enter the combustion chamber, the more power it will produce. Diesel engines, because they are spinning at low RPMs, can't really "suck" in enough air to fill the chamber on each cycle, so the addition of a turbocharger helps.

Diesel burns at low temperatures and exhaust temps are typically in the range of 500-800ºF and the volume of exhaust gases is quite high. When sizing a turbo for a diesel engine, the turbine section must have enough flow for the high volume of exhaust gas and minimize back pressure. It also must flow a very large volume of intake air in order to keep the cylinders filled. As mentioned previously, diesel engines already run high compression, so adding a turbo is to increase the volume of air entering. The boost is typically very low: in the 5-8 psi range. (I know there is someone reading this saying "Hey, I've seen tractors that are running 40 psi of boost." You may want to look into that because it is not uncommon to have people mistake "inches of manifold pressure" for "psi of boost." There are a few show trucks and tractors that run outrageous amounts of boost, but remember we are dealing with the drivable vehicles here.)

Now that we have this turbocharged diesel engine with a huge turbo to make the volumes that we need, let's talk about spool-up times and drivability. Spool-up time? Any watch with a second hand can time the spool-up of a diesel turbo. They aren't the fastest in the world, but they don't have to be. Most diesel engines are designed for continuous reliable running, not 0-60 sprints. And even though that huge turbo takes a while to spool up, it also takes a while to spool down. Most diesel engines don't have throttle bodies (they use metered fuel to control engine speed), so there is less back pressure when you lift of the accelerator, and therefore less to spool the turbo down. The only spool down is from the reduced exhaust gases. These larger turbos spin at lower RPMs, typically below 50,000. So, you can size the turbo larger to get the volume you need without the main concerns being spool-up time.
Gasoline Engines and Turbos

Gasoline is much more volatile than diesel fuel: it burns hotter, ignites quicker, does not need to be atomized for combustion, and also uses a lower air-to-fuel ratio than diesel fuel. These are smaller displacement engines that need to operate at a wide RPM range for drivability. They already have four valves in the head so they can get a lot of air and fuel into the cylinder and exhaust gas out. So we have an engine that runs very well, but we want more power, so we (or the manufacturers) add a turbo.

Our engine already "breathes" fairly well due to its head design. There are some four-valve heads that achieve 98% efficiency at filling the chambers. What we need to do to get more air in is to pressurize it, so we need more intake air pressure along with the correct volume. If we were to run 5 psi of boost, that would be just enough so that the engine doesn't waste energy "sucking" air in. If we really want to make more power, we have to step up to the 10-15 psi pressure range, along with the correct volume. So, we need high pressure and volume. In order to generate these higher boost pressures, the turbo spins at a much higher rate, from 40,000 all the way up to 125,000 RPM.

We need to have quick spool-up time of the turbo. We tend to wind through gears more than a diesel, so there is more up-down-up in the RPM range. Unlike a diesel, we have throttle plates that close off the intake tract, so whenever the throttle closes, the turbo spools down due to the back pressure and lack of exhaust gases. The closing of the throttle plates can cause a significant surge in the intake tract and can even damage the compressor wheel if it is severe enough. With our broad RPM range we need to make the proper volume of air for the engine speed. Our engine needs twice the volume of air at 7000 RPM than at 3000 RPM and it needs to make it efficiently.

The turbine side of the turbo needs to be addressed differently. Gasoline exhaust gases are HOT, in the range of 1000-1400ºF when under load, but they are of a comparatively lower volume to a diesel. The turbine can be sized to take advantage of this heat. Hot gases will expand, and by keeping a small amount of back pressure to the engine, the cylinders will be filled completely. The hot gases have only one place to go: through the turbine. Any restrictions after the turbo are a waste and only cause slower spool up times.
Quick Summary
# Diesel Low RPM
# Low Boost
# High Volume of Air
# Lots of Warm Exhaust Gases
# Slow Spool Up
# Almost No Back Pressure on Throttle Close


# Gasoline Variable RPM
# High Boost
# Variable Volume
# Hot Exhaust Gases
# Quick Spool Up
# Hard Back Pressure on Throttle Close

The information is provided to educate turbo owners. The differences between gasoline and diesel turbos is significant. This is another reason to have your turbo rebuilt by a shop that works with gasoline turbos. Some diesel shops would be impressed by working on a turbo for an exotic car and would be willing to do the work, but they are typically limited with their testing ability. If the shop can only balance your turbo to 30,000 or 40,000 RPM (where diesels operate), it really doesn't do much good because your turbo is operating at double, triple, or even four times that speed. Try to get it balanced to at least 70,000 RPM at minimum. In addition, the oil-to-air pressure differentials of a diesel turbo and a gasoline turbo are significantly different. Pay the extra money and get the work done by an experienced shop.

Author:  Alexandrus [ 04 Mar 2009, 23:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

:bash: :bash: :bash:
Walls of text, walls of text, very exciting and insightful. Come see, people, walls of text.

Author:  Soul_assassin [ 06 Mar 2009, 16:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Comparatia diesel turbo vs. benzina aspirat nu e corecta bineinteles, dar trebuie sa ne rezumam la a compara modelele existente (ma refer strict la Alfa Romeo) asa cum sunt ele turbo/aspirate/whatever. Poate ca acum domina diesel turbo , poate ca odata cu aparitia noilor motoare benzina turbo de la Alfa se va schimba situatia.Ce importanta au motorizarile altor constructori de automobile?

Author:  Alexandrus [ 06 Mar 2009, 17:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Pai am mai zis, topicul se numeste, citez, "diesel vs benzina" nu "diesel vs benzina la Alfa Romeo" ;) Ceea ce ma duce cu gindul ca se face o discutie de principiu intre Otto si Diesel, fie ele turbo sau nu, fie ele la Alfa Romeo, Dacia, ARO sau BMW.

Author:  Soul_assassin [ 06 Mar 2009, 17:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Ai dreptate, eu am vrut sa zic comparatii Alfa-Alfa, besides other models. :)

Author:  KALI [ 06 Mar 2009, 17:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Pe scurt : 1.8 TBi versus 2.4 JTDm in date oficiale...

TBi : 200CP / 320Nm / 0-100 7,7" / 235km/h / consum 11.8/6.0/8,1lt/100km
JTDm : 210CP / 400 Nm / 0-100 8.1" / 231km/h / consum 9.2/5.4/6.8lt/100km

Author:  alfetta [ 06 Mar 2009, 18:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

@ kali : timpi scrisi de tine ar putea fi cei reali , in schimb consumurile.....nu se poate asa ceva, asta daca tu mai crezi in mos craciun :scratch:

Author:  radu [ 06 Mar 2009, 18:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

alfetta Quote:
@ kali : timpi scrisi de tine ar putea fi cei reali , in schimb consumurile.....nu se poate asa ceva, asta daca tu mai crezi in mos craciun :scratch:
Te referi la TGBi sau la 2.4 :lol:

Author:  yux_mm [ 06 Mar 2009, 18:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

alfetta Quote:
@ kali : timpi scrisi de tine ar putea fi cei reali , in schimb consumurile.....nu se poate asa ceva, asta daca tu mai crezi in mos craciun :scratch:
cred ca e vorba de valorile date de constructor (cei de pe hartie), nu de cei reali, realizati in traficul normal

Author:  KALI [ 06 Mar 2009, 19:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

Exact,am si mentionat,este vorba despre valorile oficiale,le-am oferit ca date de plecare in comparatie,normal ca in exploatare valorile sunt mai mari, atat la Diesel cat si la benzina...

Author:  valentinp [ 16 Mar 2009, 17:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

sv_kdt Quote:
Daca e sa ne luam dupa datele de mai jos, luate din www.globalcar.com, benzinara ar ajunge la 100km/h cu o secunda mai repede :clapping: si ar parcurge un km cu plecare de pe loc mai repede tot cu vre'o secunda :uhuh:
Sa ne mai uitam cati caluti (cam lesinati) ii trebuiesc unei benzinare care deh...e si mai usurica, sa ajunga ianaintea unui JTD cu O SECUNDA !!! 24
:roll2: Pentru cei care inca ii mai fericeste diferenta de 1,1s sa se uite in tabel si la autonomia celor 63 L of fuel in urban... haha...deci practic pentru 18,27lei merg 270km - cool
Eu cred, totusi, ca pana la 1km 1.2s diferenta inseamna mult. You do the math si cred ca trebuie sa-ti iasa vreo cateva zeci de metri.
Asta, daca vrei, se traduce si prin depasiri pe care 2.0 JTS le poate face si 1.9 JTD doar le admira. De exmplu ar putea sa te depaseasca relativ usor chiar daca tu bagi pedala de acceleratie in podea pana la motor incercand sa-l anesteziezi cu fumul tau des, negru si urat mirositor; timp in care player-ul tau de muzica devine absolut inutil pentru ca e lejer acoperit de motor si de zgomotul trepidatiilor. Macar motorul si evacuarea de la JTS canta tot muzica. La JTD trebuie sa mai investesti si intr-un stabilizator(ca la aparate foto) ca sa nu intri in rezonanta cu sasiul si sa risti sa adormi la volan cand trepideaza masina la semafor sau pe acceleratie. Daca ai airbag nu-i problema, ca rezemi putin capul si poti sa dormi ca un prunc la volan.
Exagerez, dar se intelege ideea.

Pana la urma e diferenta de feeling la acceleratie, de miros, de trancaneala, de consum si chiar de stil.
Imi amintesc cateva replici comice ale lui Clarkson:
1. vorbind de consum... zicea ca gagicile, in general, nu se excita asa mult cand vad baieti care fac economie(deci si cei care fac economie la combustibil). Corect? :)
2. pe la 4k ture dieselul "runs out of ideas" - in traducere e ca un cuc gros si lung(de negru) care intra repede si brutal si iese afara terminat tot la fel de repede cum a intrat, strigand, ca la reclama: "primul!", spre dezamagirea fetei :).

Don't kill me!

Author:  yux_mm [ 16 Mar 2009, 18:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: diesel vs benzina

1.dar daca ii spui gagicii ca faci economie ca sa-i iei ei o geanta 'luis viton'?
2.gagicile oricum nu prea fac diferenta intre diesel si benzina, ci mai degraba daca masina ta are o culoare care sa se asorteze cu poseta, geanta, strampii, fusta, rujul, cerceii (etc) ei.
3.aia cu cucu gros si lung (probabil ca de negru ai vrut sa zici) se numeste eficienta (ca de aia e gros si lung, iti explic pe PM mai multe amanunte, daca este cazul); acum ce sa mai zic, poti fi primul :first: la eficienta (la gagici, ma refer)... :lol:

Scuze de oftopic, dar chiar m-a amuzat ideea. N-as vrea sa intru in polemici si nu am vrut sa supar pe nimeni. Sanatate.

P.S. sau poate ca gagicile fac diferenta intre diesel si benzina, in sensul ca dieselul vibreaza mai mult,...ceea ce s-ar putea sa-i prea placa... :smart:

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